tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post114405761614854213..comments2023-10-11T01:10:51.843-07:00Comments on Timberlines: Do Industry Associations Matter Anymore?WoodChuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17463614041405036323noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-6247161815947521002008-05-13T20:07:00.000-07:002008-05-13T20:07:00.000-07:00I would agree with John Dooney that it matters wha...I would agree with John Dooney that it matters what the certification indicates. I don't normally associate animal protection with writing instruments (and I'm pretty sure that it was a recycled plastic pencil that just broke my brand new pencil sharpener). But I would like to see a seal that indicated that a pencil had withstood normal use without breaking every couple lines.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04009107720601931341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1160922342845466522006-10-15T07:25:00.000-07:002006-10-15T07:25:00.000-07:00I think certification is a good thing, but I would...I think certification is a good thing, but I would want to know what the certification means. Does it mean that the pencil is environmentally friendly, that the lead grade is what it says it is, etc? It would help to know that. In general, though, I think certification elevates industry standards, and THAT is a good thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144507509316127302006-04-08T07:45:00.000-07:002006-04-08T07:45:00.000-07:00P.S. There are so many choices, too, so it's not h...P.S. There are so many choices, too, so it's not hard to choose to use a product not tested on animals (or one that is sustainable, forest friendly, non-toxic, etc.). Andy Rooney used to comment about all the choices in the supermarket. When I was a kid, there were maybe a dozen or so sugary kids' cereal. Now there are almost that many varieties of Cheerios alone. But in spite of all these choices, it also seems there are fewer companies making them -- the example of Sanford owning the U. S. pencil universe. Which is why I've started looking for products from smaller companies, things like Organic Valley (cooperative), Phil's Eggs (cage free), and Palominos. Even for tea, I found a small company run by a dietitian whose tea I like.<BR/><BR/>But back to animal testing, I think Avon and Revlon are still not testing on animals, so there are, for example, personal care choices that are readily available and economical. I'm sure that's likely for a lot of products.<BR/><BR/>As for certification, you probably have to have a publicity campaign and keep it out there, or no one will know what it means.Slywyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424323662407341123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144507118477760722006-04-08T07:38:00.000-07:002006-04-08T07:38:00.000-07:00RE:St. Ives used to have this on their bottles -- ...RE:<BR/>St. Ives used to have this on their bottles -- despite the fact that their parent company does in fact test on animals. I wrote to them about this, and they sent me an official document wherein they said that any really safe method of testing things such as what they sell requires testing on animals and that anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Of course, if they believe that, why put anything on the bottle about animal testing just because the finished product is not actually tested on animals?<BR/><BR/>I took their word for it that it wasn't tested on animals. Yikes.Slywyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424323662407341123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144263173319050172006-04-05T11:52:00.000-07:002006-04-05T11:52:00.000-07:00Honestly, I think certification is a great shortcu...Honestly, I think certification is a great shortcut we can use if we have principles which dictate or influence our buying decisions. <BR/><BR/>For instance, I never buy things made by companies that test on animals. While Sanford owning everything is not great at a quality level, they do have a corporate stance against animal testing, and that means something to me. <BR/><BR/>But there is no third-party certification that a product is not tested on animals, really. There is the famous leaping bunny logo from the Coalition for Consumer Information for Cosmetics (leapingbunny.org). But there are no standards or rules across the industry. So one could say, "This finished product not tested on animals" and have an image of a bunny next to it and imply that there is some connection with the Coalition and that there is NO animal testing involved in the making of that product. I'm not sure if they still do this, but St. Ives used to have this on their bottles -- despite the fact that their parent company does in fact test on animals. I wrote to them about this, and they sent me an official document wherein they said that any really safe method of testing things such as what they sell requires testing on animals and that anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Of course, if they believe that, why put anything on the bottle about animal testing just because the finished product is not actually tested on animals? And if that St. Ives face scrub is not tested on animals, and they are telling you that only things tested on animals are safe, are they admitting to selling what they would themselves consider a potentially unsafe product?<BR/><BR/>Back to the point, if one is concerned about animal testing, you have to do background research yourself into companies and their policies and practices. You can't even use the lists compiled by PETA anymore because they have been incorrect for at least several years (last time I looked at it, they still say that PaperMate is owned by Gillette, but if they updated it, great!). <BR/><BR/>Of course, with some kind of certification policy, companies would have to be willing to go through with it. And I don't really think that enough people in our society are concerned with the issue of animal testing (not that it's bad that way; it might be bad if we all agreed on everything) for companies to really have any reason to seek that kind of certification.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, we have a very unique view, especially in the US and Germany, of the natural world that we inherit from the likes of the Transcendentalists, John Muir and the legislation* that those of use born after the Endangered Species Act and the EPA grew up with. And that is that there is a kind of moral value to nature and to protecting it. Polls show that most of us in the US consider ourselves "environmentalists" of some kind. But, like Diane points out (very correctly, I think), few of us really purchase in accordance with what we <I>believe</I> we believe. I think that a lot of this is due to ignorance and the fact that it would simply take too much effort and time to figure out what goes into the things we buy and what their production does to the planet. However, having a seal or statement of certification can cut out this ignorance, and we can see what happens when people know that, say, the nameless pencils they are buying at a gift shop are made from wood that was not replaced after it was cut down. <BR/><BR/>I think that things like FSC and PMA certification would greatly sidestep having to make a blind decision. And certification that a product is not toxic will certainly help anyone who is concerned about this issue when they purchase things. My brother in Maryland likes it when I send him non-toxic pencils because he has a baby pug dog who likes to chew his pencils (especially GRIP 2001s for some reason). It would be nice if he could tell from the box if something is non-toxic and environmentally friendly, though, with a good deal of confidence in the accuracy of such a statement.<BR/><BR/>If our buying practices that run counter to what we purport to believe are really based on ignorance (and, by golly, I sure <I>hope</I> so), then reliable certification is a very good thing and can be very helpful to people who think about what they buy. But, like Diane also says, those of us who think about more than just price are becoming a smaller group. <BR/><BR/>[*Mostly due to efforts of groups like the Sierra Club.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144260269931669062006-04-05T11:04:00.000-07:002006-04-05T11:04:00.000-07:00Thanks all for your very interesting and thoughtfu...Thanks all for your very interesting and thoughtful input whether it's been here on Timberlines or over at Pencil Revolution. Keep it comming.WoodChuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17463614041405036323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144250225892046582006-04-05T08:17:00.000-07:002006-04-05T08:17:00.000-07:00i am going to say that mostly to me industry certi...i am going to say that mostly to me industry certification does not matter if the cool industry certified product is a product that i can't BUY because everything in the damn store is bought by store buyers on most-common-denominator criteria. i go to the stores around me in LA, which is a pretty big city, and the only difference between most stores is the sign on the door. so, i end up buying at kinokuniya in downtown LA, or i buy off the internet. why would i care about whether or not something i cannot easily buy is certified? that's my question.<BR/><BR/>basically almost everything in the writing universe belongs to sanford/rubbermaid, and you can TELL the minute that they acquire something because it all basically becomes papermate. now. in that environment, why would certification matter?<BR/><BR/>thanks<BR/>-humdoghumdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305237561587137439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144198493391392382006-04-04T17:54:00.000-07:002006-04-04T17:54:00.000-07:00It's important to me, and I suspect to writers and...It's important to me, and I suspect to writers and artists who use pencils, but in this increasingly Walmartized society, it's probably not important to most people, who want large quantities of stuff cheap. We are pretty two-faced in some ways; we do seem to want a cleaner, better environment, but our buying choices often do not reflect that desire.<BR/><BR/>Parents might be interested in something that very clearly says there are no toxic chemicals in the product.Slywyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424323662407341123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144160329776363702006-04-04T07:18:00.000-07:002006-04-04T07:18:00.000-07:00As a consumer in very environment-conscious Vancou...As a consumer in very environment-conscious Vancouver, I can tell you that the FSC brand is probably worth a great deal--organic, environmentally friendly, animal-testing free, etc., are all big sellers here. I don't mean to minimize the ethical importance of the choices the various certifications of these things represent. But they are, after all, a selling point, and generally a selling point that speaks to a more affluent demographic.<BR/><BR/>I believe there is a certain safety level that one gets by living in a litigous society such as that in North America; there is perhaps a common perception that evildoers in the world of consumer products will get the pants sued off them, so they won't take the risk.<BR/><BR/>However, I also perceive that such risks mean less to businesses not based in North America. The long arm of the law has a lot harder time reaching them. Canada has recently seen scandals around children's toys with high lead content, dollar-store toothpaste with dangerously high levels of flouride, and other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me this boils down to image and branding. If you can make caring for the consumer's future by good environmental stewardship and for the consumer's health with product safety part of the brand of those certifications, that would potentially be a huge win. But probably you know that, and know the expenses (which no doubt are heavy) better than I, an armchair market theoriest, do.<BR/><BR/>Still, if you can fit bragging about these things onto a product box, I really do think it's worth it. It doesn't take many words to say that your product provides superior writing, but to many people, "a pencil is a pencil." (Horrors!) I have yet to see a writing instrument make a strong claim, though, that it's <I>looking out for my future and my health.</I> That gets my attention and I think it could in domestic and international markets; those producers in Asia are likely to know they have occasional image problems of being cheap, second-choice, etc. Getting on board with an international certification might be appealing for them.<BR/><BR/>I hope this helps. I appreciate your transparent way of doing business and really would like to see your efforts thrive.<BR/><BR/>--TQuidTQuidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18127083937243383577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15148858.post-1144158352447944402006-04-04T06:45:00.000-07:002006-04-04T06:45:00.000-07:00Woodchuck, I have a confession to make. While most...Woodchuck, I have a confession to make. While most of the art materials I own are certified by ASTM or similar, it's something that seems to be a side-effect of purchasing quality products. And, worse, I am not nearly so stringent about purchasing quality products when it comes to general writing instruments. Are the multi-colored, multi-branded gel pens overflowing from the jar on my desk certified by anyone? Maybe? I threw out the packaging long ago. Similar ignorance reigns as to any certifications or associations held by the pencils sharing jar space with the pens.<BR/><BR/>It’s a confession because, as someone who uses writing instruments daily and who knows something about materials safety issues, I should know. I should look for such things. I should encourage manufacturers who follow such standards by purchasing their products over the products of manufacturers who either don’t bother to follow the standards/don’t bother to specify what if any standards they do follow.<BR/><BR/>I believe my complacency is a result of controlled risk. There are so many risks, from so many sources, that the human brain can’t handle them all. So, we don’t think about the ones we perceive to be “minor” or unlikely. (It’s how we can get into a car without completely freaking out over accident statistics; how we can live in cities without obsessing over the carcinogen output numbers; how we can venture out of our beds at all, really.) My pencil seems unlikely to kill me. Therefore, I don’t worry about it.<BR/><BR/>All that said, I think that professional associations like WIMA and certifications like PMA are important. And based on my own earlier confession, I would encourage you to raise consumer awareness as to what those seals are and what it means if you see one or do not see one. Otherwise people are going to continue to only notice the seals when they’re at home, removing the wrapping from their latest purchases. “Oh, look, it’s got that funny PMA seal, too.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com